We had an interesting discussion yesterday during our church’s Revelation Bible Study (we meet weekly, and it’s led by a good friend of mine who blogs about it at The Watchman’s Gaze). I didn’t at all mean to derail the discussion, and I think I only sidetracked us for a few minutes, but I want other opinions.
Revelation 3:14 provides:
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this… (NASB)
Now, I don’t mean to call into question the divinity of Jesus, or his role as creator, but as “the Beginning of the creation of God,” was there a point in time where the manifestation of God as Jesus came into existence or did the representation of God as Jesus always exist?
Our discussion leader and our pastor (who blogs at the Monday Morning Review) were adamant (in a very friendly and cordial way-both are experienced in indulging my quirky rabbit trails) that Jesus always was. I, with very little other support around the table (except for possibly our pastor’s wife-who doesn’t blog yet), however, continue to be nagged with the metaphysical question of Jesus as “the Beginning of the creation of God” and as “…the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation…”
I certainly do not see it as heretical to think of Jesus coming into existence in some way as other reflections of God must have, His Word for example. I think we got hung up on the word “created.” And I don’t care if we use “created” or some other word to describe it. Physicists spend an awful lot of time and energy trying to figure out the moment of creation, but I want to know your thoughts about the time before that, specifically the moment of the creator.
Thoughts? Ideas? Scriptural Authority?
#1 by Joel on January 6, 2010 - 3:08 pm
Peter, I think you might find that ‘beginning’ is being read wrong. I’ve checked a few commentaries and find that we are the stress ‘The Beginning’ and in the one who begins the creation, such as the Word which God spoke. Considering that Christ is the Word and in the beginning was the Word…
#2 by sethmehorn on January 6, 2010 - 4:42 pm
Joel: That was helpful. Word studies, word studies, word studies. Amen.
Peter: I’d caution against your statement that “I don’t think it as heretical….” A glance into church history shows that this issue/question is not new and the idea of Christ as not co-eternal with God (e.g., adoptionism) creates all kings of problems both logically and Biblically. I admire that you ask questions and aren’t afraid where those questions led you (I really do!), but in this case (and in many cases!) word studies need to be conducted before conclusions with massive implications are formulated.
#3 by Peter on January 6, 2010 - 5:46 pm
Joel, I agree. I think Jesus is the creator and begins creation.
Seth, no, I don’t think the issue is new, not at all, and I want to be careful to let everyone know that I’m not suggesting that Jesus is a “created” being. What I’m asking, however, is whether there was a point at which God actually became the physical manifestation, or “perfect image.” As far as logical problems, those things when they relate to God tend to not cause me much concern. I’ve rarely found God’s ways to be logical, in human terms, at least. Now, Biblical problems, on the other hand, do concern me, so I guess I should ask, “what is/are the Biblical problem(s)?”
#4 by sethmehorn on January 6, 2010 - 6:00 pm
So, to summarize, you are affirming the pre-existence of Jesus, but questioning what that pre-existence was? Is that a fair question?
The logical problem I am referring to is with regard to subordination within the Trinity. If Jesus is not co-eternal with God the Father, or in so way was later distinguished (dare I say, improved upon), then Jesus would not be ontologically equal with God. These kinds of discussions are alive and well in both modernity and in the early church.
With regard to the Biblical problems, I am referring to how to read and interpret texts that seemingly provide dissonance with other Biblical passages. For example, speaking of Christ as “firstborn” could plausibly lead one to think of Christ as a creature (i.e., created by God). This would conflict with other passages which speak of Christ as the agent of the creation of “all things.” Thus, we are either left with dissonance and contradictions…or, we need to revisit what firstborn means in reference to Christ. In this example, I’ll go with the latter.
#5 by Peter on January 7, 2010 - 10:39 am
Your summary is exactly what I’m doing.
I don’t think it creates a logical problem, however, even if He wasn’t necessarily co-eternal because if Jesus hadn’t come into existence until his birth in human form, for example, I still think He could be fully God and fully human – but, perhaps, that is a discussion for a different day.
Your first summary is exactly what I was getting at, but that’s not nearly as controversial a way to put it.
#6 by Gary Zimmerli on January 6, 2010 - 5:18 pm
I’m no Greek scholar, but it seems to me that you’re getting a little hung up on the translation into English, Peter. From what I can figure out, the “beginning” is referring to the one who is doing it, the verb, “beginning”, as is “creation”, also a verb. It’s all referring to Jesus as the One who commenced, or began, to create, and who continued to create until the job was done.
So Jesus isn’t being said to be the first one created, but the one who started (and completed) the creation.
#7 by Peter on January 6, 2010 - 5:52 pm
Okay, fine, I’m willing to accept that if that’s what the Greek says and/or means. And it’s the same point Joel raises, but, and I should have mentioned this in my point with seth above, but we know that, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,” right? Yet, wouldn’t the Word nonetheless have to be spoken. I believe Jesus is the speaker, to be sure, I’m just trying to resolve the “chicken or egg” issue that I see, or whether there is such an issue. If not, wonderful.
#8 by Annette on January 6, 2010 - 6:49 pm
Good points, I think I will definitely subscribe!
. I’ll go and read some more!
#9 by Peter on January 11, 2010 - 4:14 pm
Thanks, Annette. Please do.
#10 by T.C. R on January 6, 2010 - 7:48 pm
Peter,
Nice post. My own approach would be to ditch the NASB to begin with.
Second, the verse may be translated:”"The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God’s creation says:” (HCSB). “Originator” for the Greek arche is linguistically defensible. With this reading, this verse fits well with John 1:1-3, where the Word is seen as the agent of creation. My take.
#11 by Peter on January 7, 2010 - 10:41 am
Actually, I’m using the NASB because that is what the study leader is using, at Church I tend to use the NKJV because that’s what the preacher preaches out of for the time being.
And I like your take, I knew you would come through for me…but, doesn’t the Word ultimately manifest in alphabetical, linguistic, and ultimately written form?
#12 by Joel on January 7, 2010 - 11:17 am
Peter, the Word was only manifested in the flesh, unless you can show otherwise. Some declare that the Bible is God in book form, but that is pretty heretical.
Further, the Word was always with God – and as others have written long before I was alive, God was never without His Word and Wisdom.
#13 by Peter on January 7, 2010 - 12:15 pm
Joel, I agree, I think.
#14 by T.C. R on January 7, 2010 - 4:49 pm
Peter,
Jesus possessed a glory with the Father before the creation (John 17:5). Hebrews 1:3, “the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature” (ESV).
#15 by Peter on January 11, 2010 - 4:06 pm
TC, I agree. I was just contemplating the nature of his being, fully spiritual, human, other…
#16 by sidleejr on January 6, 2010 - 8:35 pm
I have written an “exhaustive commentary” on Revelation and several other books. You need comprehension of all these books to understand this verse in Revelation 3. Jesus was also recorded, “Anointed the firstfruits [of the resurrection]” – 1 Cor 15.22-24. What this means is that no one could be resurrected to Third Heaven before Jesus die and was resurrected to earth, and ascended to Third Heaven.
#17 by Peter on January 7, 2010 - 10:44 am
Huh…I don’t follow. I’m not disputing your take on 1 Cor. 15 (neither am I confirming it, I haven’t studied that out), but I’m not sure what it says about my question of Rev 3. Elaborate please?
#18 by sidleejr on January 7, 2010 - 1:10 pm
Peter: elaborate please.
1. Luke 16, Lazarus and the rich man teach about “Paradise”; and Matthew 27, “Thief on the cross” teaches about “Paradise.”
2. Enoch (Pre–flood Age) “taken by God” meant “Paradise.”
3. Elijah “taken to heaven” meant “Paradise.”
4. Jesus ascended to Third Heaven — He was the first one to do this.
5. Hebrews 11.5, “Enoch was translated.”
6. Hebrew 11.35: “women receiived their dead” refers to Elijah,
7. Hebrews 11.40: “God having provided some better thing for us [First Century AD], that they (Enoch & Elijah) should not be made perfect (rise to Third Heaven) without us.
“Anoinnted the firstfruits” – 1 Cor 15.23. “first begotten from the dead” – Rev 1.5. “who is the beginning, the firstborn – Col 1.18.
#19 by Joel on January 7, 2010 - 1:39 pm
Uh, ‘meant paradise’ is your conjecture. Works from the time period denote a difference between heaven and paradise and so stated it with the exact words. In other words, if it says heaven, well, it means heaven, not paradise.
Third Heaven is a 2nd Temple term meaning, well heaven. A good study of ancient cosmology is needed.
#20 by Peter on January 7, 2010 - 3:03 pm
sidleejr, I still don’t follow. How does this relate to the question I raised? Also, I agree with Joel re the distinction between Third Heaven & Paradise – not the same thing.
Joel, again, I think we agree.
#21 by sidleejr on January 7, 2010 - 7:04 pm
Joel said, “If it said, ‘heaven’ it meant ‘heaven.’”
“A fool is known by his many words” – Proverbs.
“The earth (Israel; 588 BC) will quake before them [Babylonians]; the heavens [Governments] will trermble, the sun [king Zedekiah] and the moon [priesthood] will be dark, and the stars [prophets] …”, Joel 2.10. These are God’s A, B, Cs; if you don’t know them, then you dont know nothing”
#22 by Joel on January 7, 2010 - 7:23 pm
Oh, you are one of those…. Sidleejr, considering we were talking about the world above/after life/abode of God and not prophetic language, I’m pretty sure you missed the point.
#23 by sidleejr on January 7, 2010 - 7:16 pm
Peter:
Foolishness comes in many forms; but — please — don’t agree wsith Joel.
#24 by sidleejr on January 7, 2010 - 7:29 pm
The cause of all your confusion is a faulty Bible translation.
The Jews changed “two Creators”; [plural] Gods (Genesis 1.1, and 2,491 other times) to [single] God (LA).
Jesus was one Creator (Col 1.15-16), the Father was the second Creator (Mk 13.19), and Jesus was One Lord (Eph 4.5) and God was the Second Lord (Rev 4.8).
Don’t let the dead Jews lead you to Hell.
The Greek Interinear Bible is more trustworthy than the Jews’ Septuagint.
#25 by Peter on January 11, 2010 - 4:10 pm
sidleejr, I think you’ll find, if you read many of my posts, Joel and I have disagreed in the past, but I have always pushed Christians highlighting the things they have in common, rather than their differences. As for the “two Creators” you mention, I prefer to think of the two (of the three) aspects of the “Creator” rather than two distinct “Creators.” And I’m not sure how this would be a path to hell exactly, care to explain.
#26 by sidleejr on January 12, 2010 - 1:04 pm
The Path to Hell — from the Jews, changing plural “Gods” (MYHLA) to singular “God” (LA); Genesis 1.1 and 2,491 other places.
“Therefore I said to you, ‘You will die in the sins of you, if you do not believe that I Am [see: Ex 4.13] you will die in the sins of you” – Jn 8.24.
#27 by Randy A Brown on January 15, 2010 - 9:50 pm
Sid,
You’re correct that historically the Jews believed in one God. In fact, they tried to stone Jesus because they understood that he was claiming to be that one God. He claimed to be the “I Am”.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Jesus never claimed to be another God, and he himself claimed there is only one God.
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Jesus said that the Jews knew their God. They knew what they worshiped:
John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Are you saying that Jesus never said these things?
The scriptures tell us there is one Creator:
Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?
Are you saying this verse is a lie?
What translation do you use?
Randy
#28 by Randy A Brown on January 15, 2010 - 10:06 pm
Sid,
On the topic of Jesus being one Lord and God being another Lord…
There are simply too many verses that tell us there is one Lord.
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
This verse shows us clearly that there is only one Lord.
Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:
This verse shows us that Jesus is that one Lord.
I’m glad you mentioned Rev 4:8
Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Who is this Lord God Almighty? Let’s look at Revelation 1:8
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
According to scripture, Jesus is the one Lord and the Almighty.
Randy
#29 by sidleejr on January 17, 2010 - 4:07 pm
Randy A Brown:
You have deeply disappointed me by misquotinng the Bible. When you must do that to support your beliefs, then you shoud know that you are wrong.
In gradeschool grammar, I was introduced to, “The all-inclusive connecting word, ‘and.’”
A & B means no A without B; and no B without A. This is taught in College Logic.
“One Body, One Spirit, One Hope, One Lord, One Faith, One Dipping, One God and Father of all” = the Seven Spirits of God.
You have quoted this to read, “One Lord”, and ignored the other six “all inclusive connecting words.”
This is the work of the Devil which you have learned from, “Gog” (Bible College Professor).
#30 by Joel on January 17, 2010 - 5:14 pm
This is why you really have to go to the source – read the Greek. It is a cumulative word in the original.
#31 by Randy A Brown on January 18, 2010 - 9:36 pm
Sid… What version of the Bible is that?
#32 by sidleejr on January 19, 2010 - 2:11 pm
To: Mr. Randy A. Brown; with extreme love (agape)
1) Mark 12.29 misquoted by Mr. Brown, leaving the last half of the sentence out. You will never learn anything like that!
2 Ephesians 4.4-6; Mr. Brown left six-sevenths of the sentence out. Woe to Mr. Brown.
3) “salvation is of the Jews” – Jesus.
“You will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord … I will say to you, ‘I never knew you.’”
NOTE: These two verses are what I call, “a seeming contradiction.” And — the Bible is full of them.
These are reconciled by a third verse, but then, only men of age are aware of these third verses.
“They are not all Israel that are of Israel … children of the flesh … children of promise” – Rom 9.6-8.
“The remnant of Israel saved,” also teaches most of the Jews were lost.
We should all pray that Mr. Brown will cease his vain babblings.
3) Malachi 2.10. In Hebrew Scripture single God is recorded 395 times.
Plural Goods are recorded 2,492 times.
“He Is” is recorded 6,735 times.
“He Is Gods” is recorded about 1,000 times.
The evidence is heavily in favor of [plural] “Gods.”
Why did the Jews mistranslate [plural] “Gods” 2,272 times”
Why did they translate it correctly 220 times”
The Father of “monotheism”; and of the writers of the Septuagint was the PAGAN from Media, Zoroaster, who wrote from 650-575 BC.
He named his “artificial” god “AhuraMazda.”
Why did the Jews not use “AhuraMazda” instead of [single] “God” for [plural] “Gods.” That would have been more honorable, and praise worthy to AhuraMazda.
4) What translation do you use?
“The Very First Bible translation Including the names of the Gods,” c. 2007, Sid Williams, Seven Lamps Library.
A) Genesis 1.1, and 2,491 other times reads [plural] “Gods.”
B) Genesis 2.4, and 6,734 other times, “He Is.”
C) Mathew 1.1, “Iesous” confirmed by all Greek Interlinear Bibles. That is an awful lot of confirmation.
Changed by Bishop of London, in AD 1738, to read “Jesus.” This is the very first record of the letter, “J” in the world. The Greek alphabet has no letter, “J.” The Hebrew alphabet has no letter, “J.”
D) “Christos”, meaning “Anointed” corrupted to read, “Christ.” There is no word, “Christ” in the Bible.
E) “Holy God” corrupted to read, “brimstone” 18 times. There is no word “brimstone” in the Bible.
Remember to pray for Mr. Brown and his habit of misquoting thc Bible. This is a serious offence. He needs your prayers.
#33 by Joel on January 19, 2010 - 2:21 pm
Peter, it is evident that your spam filter isn’t working
#34 by Randy A Brown on January 19, 2010 - 6:07 pm
Sid – How much of Rom 9.6-8 did you leave out?
#35 by sidleejr on January 19, 2010 - 7:44 pm
Randy A. Brown:
Too proud to repent, are you?
What I keft out was not meant to deceive anyone like your omissions were.
I did not leave out anything about the “double-use” of the word “Israel” referring to “children of flesh” and “children of promise.”
This is what you were missing.
I was only trying to help, but that was not to be.
#36 by Randy A Brown on January 19, 2010 - 8:32 pm
Peter, I’m with Joel on this. I would reconsider how you allow comments on your site. I know you don’t want your site affiliated with this type of nonsense. I wouldn’t even want it posted so that others could get confused by it. Comments can sometimes be dangerous and do more harm than good. Sid’s heresy is good proof of that.
#37 by Randy A Brown on January 19, 2010 - 9:35 pm
You can prove anything you want by writing your own translation. If it takes your own translation to prove your doctrine then you have the wrong doctrine.
Sid, the only thing I’m sorry for is that I couldn’t convince you of the truth of God’s Word.
This is my last post on this topic.
#38 by sidleejr on January 20, 2010 - 12:08 pm
To the Forum:
Randy, “Sid’s heresy.”
1) I have never posted a statement that is not firmly justified by the Bible, on ths forum.
2) Randy’s posts are all heresy.
A) He quoted “one Lord, one faith” to be from the Bible. But this is a lie! These are the Seven Spirits of God: One Body (Righteousness), One Spirit (Wisdom & Understanding), One Hope (Knowledge), One Lord (Judge [-ment]), One Faith (Counsel), One Dipping (Fear of He Is [HWHY]), One God (Might) – Ephesians 4.4-6 and Isaiah 11.1-4.
My “possessing” the Spirits of God makes me much, much wiser than Randy.
B) Randy quoted Jesus quoting the Septuagint (truthfully), and mistakenly said Jesus was proclaiming ths to be the word of God. I demonstrated to Randy Jesus condemning the Septuagint by saying: 1) He had the power to forgive sins on earth (only God can forgive sins); 2) Jesus claimed the name of God from Exodus 3.14, “I Am” in JOhn 8.59 and others. Randy denied Jesus. 3) Randy quoted Malachi 2.10 as one of 395 verses in the Old Testament about “one God” (LA). I informed Randy of 2,492 verses in the Old Testament about [plural] “Gods” (MYHLA).
Ranndy woud not repent! Which one of us is the heretic?
#39 by Bryon on January 23, 2010 - 12:57 am
Peter,
I haven’t interacted with you much and I appreciate your blog. I’m coming into this late. You may be interested in a video I just linked to on my blog. It’s Dr. Michael Brown discussing something similar to what you posted.
#40 by SuzAnne on March 1, 2010 - 5:46 pm
I am taking an online course at the Blue Letter Bible Site: “Christology”. This video just clarifies so well what I am learning.
#41 by Jason M Baird on May 16, 2010 - 3:23 am
@Bryon: Kudos on the fantastic video, it is a rare and scholarly explanation of the most basic principle in scripture…. Deut 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD”. It is hard to worship if you are unsure of how many individuals are to be worshipped.
This simple command overrides man’s interpretations of all other scripture. It is akin to “God is Good”… so he can’t be evil at the same time. Likewise, God can not be both “one” and “three” in essence, but he can manifest his oneness in an infinite number of ways.
I will make two statements.
1) The “Holy Spirit” is the father’s power manifest in our world.
2) The “Son” is the father in an earthly body.
While the “Holy Spirit” or spirit of truth (John 15:26) that anoints Jesus and gives him life is eternal and not a created being, the body in which he is clothed is a part of the creation. It was at his baptism that it became evident that God the father was here with us, being translated into a mortal body via the “Holy Spirit” that descended and lighted upon Jesus. Unfortunately some (as I did once) see this event as three perfectly unified individuals that comprise a Trinity. The truth is always much simpler than we imagine.
This next part is really another discussion entirely, but it has relevence here.
Ask yourself who raised Jesus from the dead? Now read the following scriptures and answer the question for each before preceding to the next.
Romans 10:9
Romans 8:11
John 10:17-18
John 2:19-21
Warm Regards,
Jason
#42 by Juegos on December 20, 2010 - 9:08 pm
Excellent post, I look forward to see more