I know that we all come across passages in scripture we have read numerous times, and then one day we read it again and say, “What? I never knew that was in there…”
This is my latest of those:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrew 6:4-6 (NKJV)
Does this really say what I think it says?
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#1 by Nick Norelli on July 13, 2009 - 2:58 pm
Yup. Apostates ain’t coming back.
#2 by petermlopez on July 13, 2009 - 3:35 pm
I guess I sort of knew this, but “impossible” seems a little harsh. But, I’m not the author, so…
#3 by smdavid on July 13, 2009 - 3:20 pm
There’s a good ebook that’s free to help pastors and their wives with discouragement and burnout. You can find it at
http://www.stoppastorburnout.com. It’s quite helpful.
#4 by petermlopez on July 13, 2009 - 3:38 pm
Thank you, I appreciate that. I am not a pastor, but I know of several who read this blog, perhaps they will find it useful.
#5 by tc robinson on July 13, 2009 - 3:25 pm
My friend, this is a tough one. It depends on the reader.
#6 by petermlopez on July 13, 2009 - 3:37 pm
That’s usually my initial thought as well, but it seems pretty black and white. Believe me, I’ve applied my legal/mental gymnastics to this one trying to find ambiguity, but I don’t see it. Would you elaborate please?
#7 by Bryan on July 13, 2009 - 3:59 pm
I know that we probably disagree on this due to our particular soteriologies… but then again, we don’t disagree on as much as it seems if we were to list our systematic theologies (ick) out on paper.
keep reading! That’s not the entire context. verse 9 says:
“Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation. ”
The author seems to believe that they will not fall away, though he gave that warning. The possibilities are:
1) Loss of salvation, no coming back. legitimate warning.
2) Loss of salvation, can come back. Illegitimate warning.
3) Can’t lose salvation, but warning is used to spur Christians to continue in the faith through hard times. Legitimate warning.
4) Can’t lose salvation, warning doesn’t make much sense. Illegitimate warning.
You can probably guess what I think the two best understandings are, for the two various ways of looking at perseverance
#8 by petermlopez on July 14, 2009 - 10:01 am
I agree, that for true believers, this possibility is unlikely, and for those who have attained all the conditions Bob correctly points out below, even less so. Nevertheless, it sounds like No. 1 (using your numbering system) is certainly more than just a warning (although I certainly think it is that also).
And my systematic theology would bleed red from all of the editing and corrections.
#9 by tc robinson on July 13, 2009 - 4:32 pm
If we’re speaking of someone who has better genuinely born again, then we’re speaking of the reality of losing salvation and not being able to get it back.
But v.9 is quite telling. Something was going on and the writer says that these verses do not apply to his readers, fellow believers.
It really comes down to whether a person could lose their salvation. Bottomline.
#10 by petermlopez on July 13, 2009 - 4:40 pm
I think I agree with your assessment. So, can they?
#11 by tc robinson on July 13, 2009 - 5:44 pm
C’mon! You know my humble answer.
#12 by Jason on July 13, 2009 - 4:00 pm
You picked a good one! Piper’s explanation is good, that there comes a point in the lives of those who experience the goodness of God (as mentioned in these verses) but never fully commit to Christ where they can no longer repent. I don’t know that I embrace this view, but he makes a compelling argument. I tend to look at it as saying if one could fall away from saving grace, there would be no return, lest Christ be re-crucified.
#13 by petermlopez on July 13, 2009 - 4:36 pm
Well, it seems, in a more general sense, that people fall away from saving grace all the time. But, I think this passage contemplate more than that, “partakers of the Holy Spirit…powers of the age to come,” etc., which suggests to me that we are dealing with something a little more significant than a backslider (which many of us-myself included-have been). I guess I’m getting hung up on “fall away” and what that really means.
#14 by brianfulthorp on July 13, 2009 - 4:16 pm
it’s also a word of warning – did that really happen or could it happen it they went that way? (especially given that perhaps “if” is a key word) Let us hope and pray that is one big “if.”
#15 by petermlopez on July 13, 2009 - 4:38 pm
I agree with that, I think it is a word of warning. Maybe this should Book 1, Chapter1 of Christianity 101.
#16 by Bob MacDonald on July 13, 2009 - 6:57 pm
There are several warnings in Hebrews of which this is one. And do note it has 5 (or 6) preconditions.
1. once enlightened,
2. and have tasted the heavenly gift,
3. and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
4. and have tasted the good word of God
5. and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away
fear not and do not give up – the good we gain in our perseverance is not to be compared with any uncertainty. And while Hashem knows how to discipline, he also knows how to save – and we do not ‘understand’ that – rather we are to follow in the obedience of faith. Consider Job and his perseverance
– In this he is a type both of Christ and of us who are in Christ. (I am jumping to a conclusion I hope to reach more slowly and carefully in the next few months.)
#17 by petermlopez on July 14, 2009 - 9:45 am
Yes, thankfully, it’s not so simple as I have made it, but still…
#18 by Polycarp on July 13, 2009 - 7:43 pm
Peter, I believe that Hebrews is about the loss of faith, rather, about the loss of the Faith. Chapter 10 speaks about a willful sin, connecting it to the sin in Numbers concerning the ‘high hand.’ I do not believe that someone can loose their salvation just because, but that it takes a very serious rejection of Christ. Note that in 1st John he speaks about a sin that is unto death, and warns not to pray for it.
#19 by petermlopez on July 14, 2009 - 9:48 am
Oh, I agree. It’s just having come from a Catholic, turned agnostic, turned Baptist turned charismatic background, I think I walked a very fine line looking back on it. Thank God for His goodness.
#20 by Larry Who on July 13, 2009 - 7:48 pm
I agree with tc robinson.
My humble opinion is that when the Lord saved me (or you), He looked ahead and saw every mistake which I would ever make, and He still wanted me. Pretty awesome Lord, right?
As far as the scripture, it has been rehashed over the years by Arminians and Calvinists without any definite conclusion arrived at as yet. I’m still waiting.
#21 by petermlopez on July 14, 2009 - 9:49 am
Same here, I guess.
#22 by Damian on July 14, 2009 - 1:45 am
This is why there was a lot of struggle over the entrance of Hebrews into the canon way back when (from what I understand). I’d really like to know how the leaders of the church came to understand these verses; or at least their thoughts on the matter. And a lot of word play seems to go into making it ok (‘if you fell away and came back, you didn’t truly go away’). I tend to take Hebrews with a grain of salt or two
.
#23 by petermlopez on July 14, 2009 - 9:49 am
I wish I could pick the author’s brain a bit, if we knew who the author was…